a "beef" with a vegetarian...

Talk to any vegetable... Wasn't that from Frank Zappa?

I think I’ve had it with the “holier than thou” vegans.

It’s becoming the new religion for women (especially) that have trouble achieving orgasm any other way and their overly sensitive male partners. (Oh… did I mention something about the human male equivalent of a doormat? Did anyone mention burdensome neuroses yet? Thinly veiled anorexics hiding behind the guise of passionate activism?) When did vegetarians and PETA activists become Pentacostals? They’re beginning to sound like Jehovahs Witnesses and I want them off my doorstep!

I shared an exchange of letters with a “person” who described herself as an animal activist…

Puhleeze… Animal activist? Is that some sort of code word for PETA? Who knew? I rose to the bait. Her letter was so condescending…because I eat meat? Pardon me but the last time I checked, Homo sapiens was, in fact, an omnivore. Our digestive tract and the arrangement of our teeth seem to support that “conclusion”… Whether or not we eat too much meat is another question—as is the safety of the food chain.

However--excerpts from her letters as follows—and my responses and comments:

Well, I don't "preach" to my friends/co-workers because I feel that living life and leading by example is more effective… .I drive, but mostly because I have children… But I do drive a Prius,

(note: so does driving a Prius somehow absolve someone of responsibility for the state of the environment? Is the plastic and the geegaws and the energy used in the manufacturing of a Prius somehow not count???)

I will admit that I find it to be contradicting to be an environmentalist who eats meat, especially one as obviously knowledgeable as yourself.

(note: Hmmm… I find it a contradiction to have children when over-population has been such an issue.)

In addition to all the complaints you have about the destruction of land, you raised the issues of the multitude of water wasted and the harmful effects of feline feces, but you didn't correlate these issues with the drastic increase in water consumption by animal agriculture versus vegitation per capita (don't waste 1/2 gallon washing an extra plate, but order a meal that wasted 100 gallons), nor the water (and land) contamination from the overdose of antibiotics "fed" to agricultural animals and remaining in their feces, as well as our water.


Someone draw me a picture here. I’m not getting it: Are vegetarians eating plants that don’t need water? Is the rice they eat somehow grown without water or is it from other parts of the world that are routinely flooded by monsoons? Is it a genetically modified rice that can grow in a dry climate like California…without diverting water from somewhere else??? Are the hormones used in cosmetics different from the ones used in agriculture? Do they somehow not foul the water? Now I suppose that is moot if one doesn’t use cosmetics at all...

(my replies-- edited and somewhat rewritten)

the PETA stuff:

It's an empty noise if we fail to protect habitat.

It's a hollow victory if we don't look at all our impacts-- collectively --on wildlife and the environment especially given this self involved self absorbed consumer society that we seem to have become. I watched several ostensibly political correct old folks hiking at the Marin headlands this weekend. I am sure one had bad knees so she was using some pretty fancy aluminum hiking staffs--either that or she was buying into one more fad, one more consumer trend... The reality is that somewhere there is one incredibly ugly open pit mine where bauxite and aluminum ore is mined. (I believe most of it now comes from South America, heaping further abuse on the rain forests--or the Patagonia.) I have run into more than one smug, holier than thou "vegan" meanwhile knowing that the plow (and development) has done more to wipe out species like the San Joaquin Kit Fox (?) and burrowing owls and and... Water for agriculture has decimated many of the fish once abundant on the West Coast... but I don't see people up in arms about the waste in the Farm Bill that encourages these water diversions and subsidies-- and everything that comes with them. The Farm Bill just isn't that sexy of a topic. Puppies are…baby Harp Seals are--as are ”charismatic megafauna”. Michael Vick gets more press than the Farm Bill and yet the Farm Bill and the Army Corps of Engineers has done to wipe out or encourage the destruction of more creatures and more habitat than probably any other single factor...including eating meat or any laboratory experiments.

More wildlife is killed by cars than hunters. People "feel bad" when they hit an animal--but usually not enough to slow down or give up driving--and yet you see very few people doing anything about that--or creating wildlife corridors and safe passage... Is PETA going to start protesting the reckless slaughter of wildlife on our highways anytime soon…?

More Americans die--each month-- on our highways than have died in Iraq so I hope we are really protesting the immorality of the war rather than the "loss of life".

As much as I love a good red wine, there are numerous wineries that I am boycotting because of the way they till their fields--increasing erosion (and pesticide run-off) eventually choking everything in our streams.

Activism is far far more than not eating meat or "ethical treatment" of animals IMHO. I get really plugged in when I realize how much damage cats are doing to our native songbird populations (and many small mammals and reptiles!) for example. In fact, cat shit is a factor in the decline of sea otter populations because of certain pathogens in it ( sorry for the laypersons version) but we as a society would rather regulate fishermen out of existence (at a time when "some" people–decidedly overweight and unhealthy--should be eating more fish) than deal with irresponsible pet owners???I'm guessing you know all this. I just get plugged in and need to vent. I've spent way too much time in the woods , too much time watching things go downhill ... and realizing that too many children are far more in tune with X-box and Paris Hilton and "reality" TV than the natural world.

Did you ever stop to think that digitized music is about the worst thing that has happened to our ears? ;-) Analog is a continuous stream of "information" -- a wave whereas anytime anything is digitized it exists in (essentially) a world of x and y axiis. A smooth wave instead becomes a series of relatively abrupt (discrete) steps and each of those steps represents information that is left out. I think I have a good ear--and a terrible memory--but I am convinced that I can sometimes hear when notes are clipped or cut off. Listen to how a note lingers when played live on a stringed instrument ( acoustic of course) as compared to a digitized and compressed recording. It's a sweet sound, a similar feeling that a fisherman sometimes reconnects with when he or she chooses to fish with a bamboo rod rather than graphite or some other plastic resin fiber amalgam.

I'm rambling...

I'm not sure if I should keep fighting to protect the environment--or welcome another mass extinction. I was studying--reading voraciously--on climate change many many years ago. I think the earliest studies that I saw addressed heat build up and associated weather changes just on the basis of thermal massing in urban areas. Anyways... I think most paleontologists are in agreement that major climactic changes precepitated( preceded?) extinctions of the prevalent lifeforms (4 or 5 major extinctions to date: Precambrian, Cambrian, Cretaceous, Jurassic etc etc) Mull that over:” major climactic changes”--then read some of the material on the Woods Hole Oceanographic Institute on "thresholds" and tipping points and "instability", all related to weather patterns and changes associated with human activity-- rather than volcanoes or meteors!!!Is this too much like preaching to the choir? :lol I was thinking about that this afternoon. I still drive--I pretty much have to haul tools and things around so I got a small truck--a 4 cylinder Toyota and I do my best to drive s-l-o-w-l-y which saves gas. I was watching these behemoth gas guzzlers fly by me and even the PC types STILL in single occupant vehicles and I thought well maybe the species Homo sapiens doesn't deserve to continue... I guess ride sharing is too weird--like a person would have to actually talk to someone and share space with them and acknowledge them ;-)

I think I am going to join the Christian Right and welcome the end--or support mandatory sterilization. The dumbest idea I've ever heard or read: Impeach Bush. Yes...that would leave Cheney "officially" in charge instead of just pulling the strings. Next time you see an "Impeach Bush" bumper sticker or whatever--think about that persons capacity for critical thought and understanding of our political system :lol

So what all this means is that I eat meat--and I am not wracked by guilt for doing so. Kosher dietary laws apply here—not because of any religious beliefs but a respect for this other lifeform that gives me sustenance by giving it's life. Many Native American peoples acknowledged that and gave thanks to that animals spirit. There is some interesting reading on the subject if it holds any appeal--hidden in books on fisheries issues such as "Totem Fish" and "Salmon Without Rivers" ( by Jim Lichatowich I think...) One issue that you may already be well versed in is the plight of the(Sacramento) Delta--and everything that lives in it and depends on it. Some of the solutions are so simple, it is disturbing that we collectively are so self absorbed that we can't implement more of them. Will you--can you --talk to your friends and coworkers about being more water conscious? I went out to dinner over the weekend and asked my partner NOT to get an extra plate because that was one more dish that would need to be washed. Don't take the glass of water unless you really are going to drink it... talk to your neighbors about xeriscapes and the added benefit of not having to mow a lawn ;-) freeing up more time for skating or whatever other activity that one could indulge in once free of the tedium of lawn maintenance…

Yes Yes Yes!!! I agree consumerism is bad--although I too have my quirks. There are compromises in my life and if I am living right ( I tiptoe around the edges of Buddhism) , I acknowledge those "compromises" and try to keep them to a minimum. Funny that more people don't see the trap that consumerism is--the rat race --the wheel that the hamster runs on --endlessly chasing it's own tail? I've been reading a little on macro economics as I believe there are some major structural flaws in our collective approach to economy. We aren't going to be able to buy solutions or throw enough money at problems in the future to make them go away. The Bush cabal (although this precedes this administration by many years--going back to the earliest Reaganomics)-has built a house of cards and of smoke and mirrors--that is headed for collapse or out of control inflation. Inflationary pressures are built into our very own banking system and the Federal Reserve. Some interesting stuff out there—starting with some old line communists and on the far right, Keynesian (sp?) economics.

There is something seriously wrong when a single house --seven bedrooms-- in San Francisco is listed on the real estate market for $55,000,00.00

I agree --almost totally-- with the "non confrontational" approach. I sometimes end up speaking to some very conservative groups and it becomes a matter of phrasing things in a vocabulary or a manner that they get. For example, I am an advocate of conscientious "Catch and Release". Creatures regularly escape from predators--and we are pretty much an apex predator--so there is this biological basis for the practice. There are also fecundity issues with many cold water fishes (a trout carries about 600 to 800 eggs per pound of body weight whereas some carps have 100,000 per pound of body weight) so the practice (release) is generally encouraged. Fishermen can become pretty sanctimonious about releasing a fish-- supposedly unharmed-- but 80% of them actually have no idea how to land or safely handle a fish and unintentionally injure the fish. I try to stress the careful handling of any living creature but for those people who have so little respect or understanding--I just break it down in terms of numbers: If that fish dies, there will eventually be fewer for them to catch in the future. The practice makes even more sense in terms of genetics although fishes are far more adaptable and "genetically plastic" than most people realize. The size of a fish in a river can often tell me what the winters are like ;-) Ranchers--even though they can be my nemesis-- "get" some of the genetic components: they put their prize bull out to stud rather than turn it into lumpy gray imitation meat product to be sold in fast food chains.

Are you a vegetarian?

I was once--not for any moral issue as death--and rebirth and regeneration are very much a part of this cycle, of this planet. Yes your point about water is well taken--but also forgone. I have been fighting to restore some measure of sanity in the Klamath Basin (are you familiar with the issues up there?) One big one has been water diversions--to grow low value crops --nutritionally and economically—and it strays into an arena that includes NAFTA and the global economy. Farmers are competing with imported foodstuffs that we know now can be so tainted (as if there ever was any doubt). I speak and I testify (at various hearings etc) when I can on these issues and one item that does get brought up is that it takes something like 1500 gallons of water to "raise" 1 pound of beef. The entire Klamath Basin: fish, birdlife and open space is being devastated not for simple economics but to subsidize a lifestyle that is actually being lost to outsourcing and cheap imports--and to buy conservative votes (referring to stories in the Wall Street Journal and the Washington Post detailing Cheney and Karl Roves involvement).

At this point I'm typing to hear myself type… but part of where I come from or how I came to be was a series of transforming experiences: I spent a month in the wilds of Alaska--back before it was such the outdoor adventure destination that it is now; and I was peripherally involved with the creation of the Van Hoosear Wildflower Preserve. Alaska was an eye opener in terms of the cycle of life and death. Bears do unspeakable things to salmon. The waste--or what we think is waste--and carnage is actually part of a larger cycle; and the salmon feed an entire series of organisms on the forest floor. The stench of decaying fish and the visuals can be pretty harsh (it's not Disney) but somehow things all fit and work together and the challenge is to understand this and our failure is not grasping or understanding all the small pieces. (hatchery raised fish are a disaster in every sense of the word--and aquaculture is right up there in terms of toxicity and unsustainability). The folks that spearheaded the formation of the Van Hoosear Wildflower Preserve recognized that grazing plays a key role in some ecosystems. Where we have gone wrong is the number of grazing animals that are confined to one small area... Anyways the large grazing animals--the big herds of elk, deer, antelope and buffalo are gone so they encouraged the judicious grazing (with domestic horses) of their property to control non native plants and to encourage those natives that evolved with grazing mammals. I don't hunt--and I think SOME hunters have real issues about sexuality and guns and feelings of powerlessness and impotence --but just the same I have lately been supporting some hunting groups. I support them because I am looking at this prey predator balance that mankind has turned so upside down ( a “kinda favorite” movie is Koyaanisquatsi sp?) Oh yes… a hunter who actually knows what he or she is doing is far more humane than sending an animal to a slaughterhouse... A portion of Kosher dietary laws recognized that the animals suffer--and ironically the suffering changes the way the animal tastes as the build up of lactic acids changes and attacks muscle tissue. Anyways, we collectively have been killing the apex predators allowing these other creatures populations to spiral out of control which then snowballs. Cormorant numbers are obscene because of all the artificial impoundments humans have built and in turn all the things that are eaten by cormorants suffer.

Most people are terrified of sharks, people kill them for sport and for their fins and livers--so seal populations --which were eaten by sharks--are out of control. The seals then eat the salmon and steelhead which are REALLY in trouble because of habitat loss: dam building, agribusiness, logging and water diversions. Some fairly savvy enviros that I work with are now scratching their heads over the Marine Mammal Protection Act and the firestorm that may come from changing that --if they want to address out of control seal populations to save the last of the salmon and steelhead.

What really is out of control is us. Population-- followed by greed. Deep down inside I think some of the most radical NeoCons also realize this. Unfortunately their solutions involve war and holocaust with the survivors being white, wealthy and male dominated--clones so to speak. They are not afraid of climate change as it has the potential to wipe out one third of the worlds population--most of whom will be poor and non white--the most vulnerable--while they move to higher ground. Have you seen any of those Pentagon studies or the leaked portions--that deal with the impacts of climate change? The goal seems to be making the world safer for wealthy white men-- where women are chattel...reserved for breeding. That is the real Bush/NeoCon agenda in my opinion. It has also been hard for me to support ANY groups that don't address over-population--and more locally--work to limit development as that becomes or feeds into a larger pattern of habitat destruction. I mentioned Michael Vick in passing. PETA groups have been protesting --but I think they might have missed the bigger target: almost ALL pro sports encourage similar values and bloodlust: winning is everything and at whatever cost… Vick is only a symptom of some values gone horribly astray that are endemic. Look at video games: they make killing a sport--and detached from any sort of reality. In fact, Nvidia makes chip arrays for gamers--and for the next generation (F 17) fighter jets. The NFL is the problem--not Michael Vick--and the people that directly or indirectly support the NFL. Is PETA prepared to take on the NFL? (not that we can speak for PETA--only for ourselves) I played football--I'm a big muscular guy even at this age--and I thought it was one hell of an ugly brutal sport. Yet we have this larger society that values it, worhsips it even. Sick sick-- those ultimate fighting things and kick boxing that are on TV nowadays. TV (and mass media) is an evil in and of itself--and I have not owned one since 1974. (Might be time to read or reread Noam Chomskys "Manufacturing Consent"…) The "feminized male" is not an answer either, unless we--when it comes down to fighting for those things that are worth fighting for, do so by throwing lattes at each other and scratching their eyeballs out ;-) Some things ARE worth fighting for.

Enough "ramble". Don't encourage me ;-) ...so I eat meat--even red meat--and speak out against globalism, Farm Bills, outsourcing and over-population. There is method to my madness: eating meat removes these destructive animals from the habitats they are destroying and --given the tainted food chain, hormones, antibiotics and Mad Cow-- may speed my own demise, thereby making room for another living creature ;-) ;-) ;-) I haven't quite bought into the whole electric/hybrid/plug in technology thing yet. I have concerns about manufacturing processes (materials used) toxicity of batteries, disposal and I guess the larger environmental footprint. I agonized at replacing my old van knowing full well it would end up in the waste stream. What do we know about hybrids and plug ins--and their overall footprint ie energy to build, battery disposal etc etc.. ? Are there breakthroughs in battery technology that are not so lethal as some of the lithium iode and metal hydrides and lead acid? In an effort to minimize my environmental footprint, I bought down the most stripped down model truck--stick shift-- free of gimmicks and gadgets and too much plastic that I could find--only to find out air conditioning is standard!!!